on obama? >> guest: one thing, and i hope this is not too annoying, if you are a true historian, the idea is that unlike current analyst who wait 30 or 40 years and get the documents that people did not see in real-time and also know how the story turned out so that you could gain ahistorical view -- i was we can do that with health care yet. i think on obama, what was your other question? >> host: bernie is now gone. he wanted to talk about presidential cowardice. >> guest: oh, yes, that's right. in my mind, the worst circle of hell should be for a president of doctors the issues of the most important time. if you're trying to think of an example, i think president buchanan would regret the top of the scale. because for four years he tried to dodge the issue of slavery. he didn't want to get involved. he didn't want to make himself unpopular. the result was that when it really came to a head in 1861, once abraham lincoln had the presidency, the conflict over slavery was four years were violent